3/26/98 Jim Block jimblock@cei.net
Allen. It is a people problem not a gun problem. Switzerland households are REQUIRED to keep assult rifles and ammunition available. You can walk down Swiss streets even more securely that Canadian streets. IT IS A PEOPLE PROBLEM, NOT A GUN PROBLEM.
3/26/98 Muad’Dib usul@thepoint.net_nospam
I see a trend emerging: Any comments whicb do not conform perfectly to Mr. Lenan’s views are “too stupid to comment on” (yet the urge to say so overwhelms, I guess). An easy, predictable debating technique, but hardly convincing, I’m afraid. What exactly was “too stupid” about my post, Mr. Lenan? Was there something wrong with my data? Was my analysis of that data flawed in some way? These are certainly a legitimate points of contention, a fact I have in no way disregarded. A debate would entail your pointing out my errors and providing alternative data and/or analysis. I, at least, have provided these – you have not. Anecdotes, repetition, allusion to “international data” you don’t provide, and SHOUTING do not make your point more acute, nor your lack of supporting evidence less apparent. Calling those who disagree with you “stupid” enhances neither your position nor your status as a person whose views should be given any weight. Quite the contrary. Guns are an emotional issue, but not immune to reasonable, methodical debate. I challenge you to step up a level from polemics to actual intellectual discourse. I, and others here, have presented our viewpoints with supporting evidence. If you disagree with me, _support_ your position rather than belittling yourself (not me, I assure you) by namecalling.
3/27/98 Fremling fremling@earthlink.net
See John Lott’s op-ed piece on page A14 in the Friday, March 27th, Wall Street Journal. He has an excellent analysis of the Arkansas school shooting.
3/27/98 bmp bmp@geocities.com
Dear Lenin (uh, I mean, Lenan… David Lenan): If guns are the reason for the relatively high homicide rates in the U.S., please explain why two other countries, that have less gun control than the U.S., have violent crime rates as low as any other European countries? These countries are Switzerland and Israel. If guns cause crime and gun control reduces it, why is it that there was much less crime in the good old days (you know, before you socialists came to power in the 60s), when guns were commonplace and gun control was nonexistent? Hmmmmm?? Speaking of violent crime, do you know how many millions of innocent people were slaughtered by Hitler and Stalin after they disarmed the people, comrade? B.
3/27/98 David Lenan
Muad’Dib: You don’t agree that having a nation full of guns is probably the real cause of a culture that is obsessed with death? You don’t agree that getting rid of the guns would make people think twice about killing because the actual act would be harder (e.g. stabbing with a knife). Often pointless argument arises because it seems some people answer arguments about EVERY issue with the Consitution, the Declaration of Independence, Mom and apple pie. You think that’s educated argument, an issue comes up and half (not all) the people post messages that sound like something William Wallace would say in Braveheart?? Some have said everything on the “gun” debate except “the NRA fought like warrior poets, and won their freedom, forever…”
3/27/98 Steve Koege
I totally agree with Professor Lott on the merits of concealed weapons. Just the perception that an individual is armed would make a violent person think twice about committing an act of violence against another person. Considering this, crime would typically go down if you weren’t sure if you were going to be shot and killed for your troubles.
3/27/98 Steve
To the previous Steve – One thing that criminals consider is the risk involved in doing their business – crime. If that risk is too great (ie to their own cowardly lives), they will not do it. My father (a liberal BTW) has a sign on his rural property warning would-be criminals that they will be shot at. He hasn’t had a single problem while his neighbors are getting items stolen from their garages. In my town, an older man got fed up and did the same thing. Both my father and this other man raised the price to these criminals, and that’s a price they don’t want to pay.
3/27/98 FredE
Dave Lenan: the post immediately preceeding your last conclusively answers your first two questions in the negative. The historical and statistical data devastate the gun grabber position. And, gee, sorry Dave if we hick Americans keep referring to that pesky constitution. As long as the 2nd Amendment remains, this IS a constitutional issue.
3/27/98 Bob
TO all that respond: As an American I am proud of my country. Sure, we’ve got our faults and some dark history, but the fact of the matter remains that this country has done more for individual rights and freedoms than any country in the world. How can anyone argue with Foreigners, that are totally alien to our ways and thought processes? David, I tend to think of americans as the “William Wallace “types. People that would draw the line and stand for what we believe.Paris France, we are unlike the french, that would be speaking German now, if it wasn’t for Americans. You guys have no idea,no concept of our ideas of freedom. So before you argue, make sure you understand the concepts.
3/27/98 Mark Wilson
I love David’s response. Don’t confuse me with facts, I already know what the right answer should be.
3/27/98 Mark Wilson
Lenan: The US has always been a country awash in guns, yet this culture of death is a very recent phenomena. As usual, you would rather use emotion, and insult everyone who has the audacity to disagree with your ignorant opinions than even try to deal with the facts.
3/27/98 Wm Bach
David Lenan, I love the reference to William Wallace. Did you even understand what the character was talking about? Criminals and governments (often the same thing) respect only one thing – an armed populace. They do not respect your right to free speech, they do not respect your right to secure papers, they do not respect your right to a fair and impartial trial of your peers. Sixty million Americans understand this and will become very angry if you try to foist your commie crap upon them. Sleep well.
3/27/98 anonymous
Guns do not cause crimes people do. We have to take responsibility at some time for our society and culture and look at ourselves. Not at the drugs, guns, cars, booze etc. Are we going to ban driving because of the car accidents? The decline of our morals and ethics is to blame. In the 50s with fewer gun control laws we had fewer crimes. Parents have to take responsibility for their children, teachers for their students, bosses for their employees. You can not fire anyone anymore because you may get shot. You can not discipline any student at school because you will get sued, you cannot discipline your child because it will be taken away from you. We respect opinions and freedom of speech for criminals and restrict religious expressions. We glorify and make excuses for the criminals and forget about the victims and the people who do good. As long as you are successful and have money it is ok to be amoral and to be a crook? We have to look at ourselves and our values and make the changes. Do not mess with the Constitution that got us this far. We do not want to lose our freedoms, we should want to protect them. The 2nd amendment will guarantee the 1st and we can be around for another 200 yrs at least.
3/27/98 logos
Lenan..Are you seriouly contending the government should confiscate or otherwise make illegl the ownership of the over 200 million guns in this country? If so you are living in a dream world. The gun crime problem will not be solved by any such sweeping destruction of the Constitutional rights of US citizens. Nor will it be solved by one sweepin solution. More likely a series of solutions such as tougher sentencing, allowing citizens easier concealed carry permits, attempts to shore up the Juvenile Justice System to allow jailing offenders and later putting them in adult facilities when the come of age etc. Your comparisons of the US with other countries won’t fetch! Compare NY City and Wash. DC who have handgun control laws to other US cities which don’t. After that say something realistic please!
3/27/98 Will Briggs wsb@cs.unt.edu
Mr Lott shows a trend I want to see more of in journalism: actually including references. I get frustrated when I read that “studies show…” or “a bill recently passed into law requires…” (My only complaint about the data is I would like to have seen a measure of the statistical significance of the results.) When contrasted with the opposing editorial, this one really shines.
3/27/98 Bob
TO Paris France; I have to admit that you are right about me, or Americans in general being “superior” to any other country. I rekon that ANY armed male is SUPERIOR to one that is not. I suppose that I could make you a slave and you would have to like it because you sure could’nt do anything about it. I’ll bet that there are a lot more people immigrating here than anywhere else, in the quest to become “superior”. Any way, I”m glad you’ve finnaly realized that yes, it’s true, we are superior. As long as we retain the right to bear arms, we will stay superior.
3/27/98 John Guy jguy@disc.dla.mil
{Where is the MODERATOR of this “discussion”? If personal attacks and lewd remarks are considered appropriate in a debate, then just drop the claim to a “moderated” debate.} One would hope that no one is so tunnel-visioned as to think that to have or not to have guns are the only variables in the equation. To compare today (with many gun laws) to the 1950s (with fewer gun laws) ignore the vast differences in the societies of past and present that inspired the increase in laws. The article ASSUMES a lot more than seems reasonable in a scientific study.
3/27/98 Samuel Colt
Everybody relax! The U.S. has more guns due to our frontier heritage. Also, we chose to allow gun ownership as a foil to government tyranny. Gun ownership as defined by the Second Amendment is not for personal protection from crime, but a more important element of freedom, protection from our government should it cease to be an agent of the people. It is but one of the unique things that has made the United States the greatest country in the history of Earth. Justly deserved conceit, thank you. I DO have an atlas, by the way, and I am aware of other countries which have elitist ideas about human nature (unwashed masses, etc.) and the effects of a populace free to take responsibility for their own personal safety(The peasants have guns! Save the Queen!). Alas, the tolerant ideas that have created this prosperity also create a class of people who prey on those who follow the law. That is why I have a permit. Now if my state would follow Louisiana’s lead with car-jackers.
3/27/98 Julie Cochrane julie.cochrane@success.gatech.edu
200 or so years ago, we fought a war. At the beginning of it, we wrote down why we fought it. At the end of it we wrote down what we expected to be respected by our new government or we would throw it back out on its ear. The world may have changed a lot since then, but we have not. Fundamentally, Americans still just want to be left alone. We’re out in the world as a “Superpower” because our economic system works well, we need good trade routes to buy critical resources (like titanium) from abroad, and we learned from WWI and WWII that the rest of the world will not leave us alone to run our own country the way we like, mind our own business, and trade in peace. The only real argument against isolationism over here is that we have to enforce Pax Americana on you buggers to keep world economies and trade routes stable for what few critical resources we don’t have internally. And, of course, we’re glad to buy and sell nonessentials with you at the same time. We refer back to 200 year old documents because we meant the sentiments in them enough to fight wars over them when we said them, and we still mean them strongly enough to fight wars over them now. We refer back just to show we’re being consistent.
3/27/98 Andy Alogusz@aol.com
I’m from Detroit. We are getting casinos soon. We’ll probably have an increase in crime too. I pray that the state gov. passes the CCW reform soon. Criminals dont care what the laws are. http://www.jpfo.org
3/27/98 AllenM
D. Lenan, I think that you have an unspoken emotional context that overrides any logic you could bring to this subject. People are the problem, not the implement they use to act out. Or are we going to ban frying pans and ball point pens next?
3/27/98 Frank
On 3/26/98, David Lenan wrote: # America’s homicide rate is disgusting, to most # people at least, mabe not to someone with your character. # Guns ARE the cause of these horrible crimes, One article on this site mentioned that violent crime rates in other western countries are 10-20 times lower than ours. David, something like 50-60% of the murders are commited with firearms. Even if guns disappeared and ALL of the people that killed with guns turned into good people and did not kill with other means, we’d still have a violent crime rate five to ten times higher than other countries! Of course, it would be worse than this, since most of the people that murdered with guns would STILL be amoral sociopaths… they’d find a different weapon. Guns are used in a lot of murders not because guns cause crime, but because they are convenient to use for that purpose. They would remain convenient even if guns were banned. If you could cast a magic spell that caused all guns to cease to exist, these crooks would use something else. We have a culture of violence in America. This, unlike widespread gun ownership, is a recent development. We, as a group, have decided to forsake morality. Life has little meaning now! The only surprise is that there is not MORE violence. Combined with loose, “revolving door” justice, we’ve set ourselves up for what we’ve got. I’m glad that I now live in a state that allows me my Constitutional right to bear arms. Frank
3/27/98 Muad’Dib usul@thepoint.net
Mr. Lenan: of course I don’t think that a “nation full of guns is the cause of a culture of death.” Even if we were a culture of death, guns would be a symptom. Smoking is not an effect of cancer. But that analogy is ir-releavent because I don’t live in a culture of death. I live in a life-affirming culture that affords and respects the sacrosanct rights (and responsibilities) of free individual human beings. One of those rights is the absolute right to defense of my person, my loved ones, and my freedom. Largely because my ancestors – and quite a few millions of others along the way – agreed that this was a sacrosanct right and acted accordingly, I live in the freest country on Earth. I know there are other cultures and other countries; I have even a visited a few (Canada included, which I liked very much). I prefer to be where I am. Proliferation of violence is not an effect of the availability of guns – has the clear cut example of Switzerland (since you adore international examples so much) really failed to penetrate your prejudices? violence is and has been steadily decreasing since 1980. AK was tragic but it was newsworthy precisely because it was a rare event.
3/27/98 Stan Watson sewatso@ibm.net
Paris (France) — “The article is too technical. As everybody knows in politics a good politicians can give every sense he wish to polls and numbers and statistics.” But this is _not_ a political article, nor meant to be one. It is a rather high level discussion of logical findings from an analysis of available data. My word, if the article itself is too technical, what would have to say about the Lott-Mustard study that has been published? There are some things in the world (most?) that are not amenable to understanding through emotion or introspection but require a level of conscious cognition to understand.
3/28/98 Dave Workman oeppubs@mail.nwlink.com
Bravo for John Lott’s revealing research on the impact that concealed carry laws are having on crime. That such laws have been passed in 31 states, coinciding with passage of “Three Strikes” and “Hard Time for Armed Crime” legislation, is the real reason we are seeing a decline in reported violent crime. Those who have advocated restrictive gun control over the years, and other intrusions on the rights of individual citizens, are now being shown as the liars they’ve always been. In the wake of the Arkansas tragedy, I remain more firmly convinced than ever that gun control advocates are glad such shooting rampages to occur, simply in order to further their own agenda. The veneer is wearing thin, however, as from your own USA Today polling, the majority of respondents support gun ownership, and are now rejecting arguments that restrictions on our Constitutional rights will control crime.
3/28/98 Gary Stift gstift@misn.com
Thank God we do NOT have a world government! Those of you, not American – I do not care what your opinion is! This is America – and our rights and our laws are OUR business. If you want to be without guns and at the mercy of tyrants, that is fine – you can have whatever laws you want – in your country. The Lott article is a valid study of the situation in the U.S. David Lenan – whoever and wherever you are – stay there and keep your nose out of our business.